And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com. Christiaan Kappes. Okay. Timothy Michael Law, who serves as the co-editor of the Oxford Handbook on the Septuagint, says the deuterocanonical books were included in the Septuagint and that it would also be mistaken to imagine that they have never been read as divine Scripture.. After chemotherapy and radiation treatments in Buffalo, he underwent two successful surgeries at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. Singleton New South Wales MRC Australia provide radiator and cooling solutions to Mining , Automotive, Industrial , Agricultural , Marine and Rail Operations. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? [W]e do not know the extent of his canon. It would be an evidence chip, if you will, for it that we have to balance with other evidences. So its irrelevant. So lets just stick to scripture. Steve Christie also has his own website. My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. Those would be irrelevant to the question. Both of us agree thats not the case for Jesus. I was wrong there. Well, a lot to cover here. Thank you very much, Steve. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. The importance of discussing these Marian dogma is more than merely to debate them. Thank you. Thanks. For forty years he has been a fixture in the firmament of the apologetic pantheon, lecturing worldwide and publishing popular books like The End of Reason and Jesus Among Other Gods. How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes Its like, because-. This contradicts the last dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary to Heaven infallibly defined ex cathedra by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950, which states after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven, which strongly implies she died first. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. It is never used for a female non-sibling relative in either Testament, nor in its Greek. Okay. This is how God as savior is used in both testaments. Im not alone in believing this. Should we baptize babies or not? And this is what I did in the opening statement. Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. Check out this great listen on Audible.com. Jesus does not rebuke her. Hofstra University, +1 more. Luke does use monogenes to talk about the death of ones only child, for example, in different parts of his gospel. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. Weve got lots of great content that comes out weekly more seriously, and you dont want to miss it, so click subscribe. In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. He offered them in the debate. In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian dogmas contradict what is taught in sacred scripture. Some Protestants cast out on the Marian Dogmas by claiming they dont appear early enough in church history to count as being apostolic. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. Well, not necessarily. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. What he lived by, he died by. He says, Jesus words would have sounded exactly the same if the narrative of Zechariahs death had occurred in the book of Kings or in the Psalms. We ought to do it. But let me get to that point about death though. This was the view that St. Augustine said, when he said that in Psalm 69:5, the mother is not married, but Israel and the brethren are the other sons of Israel who spurn him. So thats another one. Okay. Steve Christie - Apologetics315 Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? William Albrecht has done a lot of great work on Mary. Steve's showmanship is upbeat and romantic but there's a lot more. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. So Im going to cover four of them. Like infant baptism, the cessation of charismatic gifts, for example. This question is for Steve from super chat megentlevolp. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. Until his death of cancer at 74 in May, Zacharias had been one of the best-known figures of American Christian radio and TV for decades. Protestants disagree. Yeah, no, fair enough. So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. Its called Morning Coffee, where we all sit down together, have a coffee and have a very casual chat. The night before that, we did an examination of conscience together. We see this in Luke 3:1, and if these siblings are Jesuss adoptive siblings from Josephs previous marriage, theres absolutely no contradiction here whatsoever. Yeah, no, Im grateful for Steve to take part in this. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. The only son? The wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee. But Jesus did not do any wrong. The son of Jonah? Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. Just want to offer an encouragement for those who are watching in the live chat or who watch this later. 0. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? 878 talking about this. Okay. So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. But they disagree about that because at least infant baptism, for many Protestants, at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, even if Scripture is silent on the matter. Ive crowned myself king, and I demand it. They point us to Jesus Christ. And I think we both agree on the assumption, Steve said it the Bible does not say Mary was not assumed into heaven, and in order to try to show her assumption would contradict it, we had to use a very speculative argument about that she did not need to be rescued from death, even though that doesnt apply to every case where God would take someone into heaven. Suppose we discovered the actual cross Jesus had been crucified on. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. So again, argument by exception. So while not common, it is used. Moreover, his arguments for a shorter Old Testament canon are contradicted by the biblical and historical evidence. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. And so I would say if youre a Protestant, for Protestants and Catholics, if the Marian dogmas can occupy at least that place. The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. Apologist, any of the Christian writers, primarily in the 2nd century, who attempted to provide a defense of Christianity and criticisms of paganism and other aspects of Greco-Roman culture. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". Submit to my authority. While Mary is a conceived in sin creation. You can see him and others talk about this on the Reason and Theology Channel. Hallo.com/mattfred. So they probably were aware of something very special about her at that time. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. Scripture reveals Mary was a Virgin, but conflicts with her being a perpetual Virgin. Trent had mentioned about Mary and her Magnificat saying, God, my savior, and she was referring back to Hannah. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. No, he was free from sin, but he still had a mortal human nature that could be subject to death. So maybe you could focus on the other three, which obviously you disagree with all these three Marion dogmas, but which do you think would be the easiest for you to get on board with? Sure. The YouTube show, which was created by Kyle Curtis and Steve McRae, often featured interesting guests, such as Hugh Ross, Inspiring Philosophy, Shannon Q, Sy Garte, Matt Dillahunty, Paulogia, Lawrence Krauss, and more. So to summarize then Steve Well, actually lets see. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. She is not mentioning sin in any case. 2022 Defenders Media All Rights Reserved, Apologetics315 is a ministry of Defenders Media, 501(c)(3) a non-profit organization. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. So in the Septuagint, Genesis 19:9, Lots daughters use the same Greek word, I know not man. So were they engaged in a vow of perpetual virginity? With over 600 references, "Why Protestant Bibles are smaller" defends the Protestant Old Testament canon using mostly Catholic resources including the Vatican, EWTN, Catholic Answers, and quotations from contemporary Catholic authors like Gary Michuta ("Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger"), Jimmy Akin ("The Fathers Know Best"), and Trent . Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. Lastly, Psalm 69:8 is a messianic verse, I have become estranged from my brothers and an alien to my mothers sons. Because verse nine begins with for, which is a conjunction, meaning because, since, or therefore, indicating that the same Messiah who would experience zeal for your house in verse nine is also the same Messiah whose mother would have other children in verse eight, which prophesied Jesus younger half brothers not believing in him in John 7:3-5 and dishonoring him in Mark 6:3-4, which occurred earlier in Mark 3:20-21 when they accused Jesus of being out of his senses, just as the future King David rebuked his oldest brother. Over the past couple of years, I have followed the rise and fall of the Non-Sequitur show. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. If she was immaculately conceived, wouldnt she have known that she was the version from Isaiah 7:14? In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. He says, Trent, the proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believed that which is false. Back to top Alert abuse. Psalm 130, verse eight, promises God will redeem Israel from all its iniquities. Okay. Book now for free with CMG Booking. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. First Mary may be speaking of salvation from dangers in this life, rather than dangers in the next life. I mean, you got me on the spot. What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. So lets stick with what scripture actually supports. Im throwing you a bone here. Number two is when Steve said, well, I dont think the church died off. G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. This is an example of eisegesis and known as a typology thats used a lot of times by Catholic apologists. This has led biblical scholars to make a variety of proposals for the identity of this Zechariah. And by the way, hi, Jeff. All right. So just a historical note for everybody watching. So again, weve gone through a lot of scripture here, but none of them stick and show that the Marian Dogmas are contradicted by the Bible in any way. And maybe we can go to Trent and then Steve. Anything else you might disagree with? My argument is how the word adelphos is specifically is used to the New Testament Greek. We see this in Psalm 69:25. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. I run morning podcasts here on locals. While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. Yeah, sounds good. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. Thanks for the super chat. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. All right. Im not sure what your question is. Steve Christie also has his own website. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. It has nothing to do with Mary being the ark. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. And Steve has not ruled that out. He had cancer and heart disease. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. But its still the first movie. Some of the ways Trent and I would agree that a dogma contradicts scripture is explicitly, implicitly, or partially. It uses [Greek 00:37:34], not [Greek 00:37:36]. Thats good for me too. Well start with an easy one, the Bodily Assumption of Mary. I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. How would you treat that thing? We discovered it, carbon-dated it, thats the cross Jesus died on. He was a five-year teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since August. Trent had mentioned about the age of accountability. Sorry, let me go back a little bit here with this. Lets see here. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. He did exactly what Jesus did. And so in seeing these Marian dogmas that they dont contradict Scripture, we can move forward in our understanding of authority to see what the church Christ established really has taught and given to us for salvation. Theres a lot of people in scripture including Joseph that doesnt say anything that she gave birth to anybody and others that he didnt give birth to older step siblings of Jesus, so thats an argument from silence. Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. Okay. 9035 SW 72nd St Ste 102 Miami, FL 33173. Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity. Morgan Stanley Wealth Management 631-755-8843. Nice to have you. We honor our father who is in heaven, and we give honor to Mary, who is the mother of God that brought our savior into the world. Well, right. The Pharisees did not have unique doctrinal authority over all other Jews since, Jesus said the Pharisees shared the seat of Moses with the scribes (Matt. Edward John Carnell - was a prominent and influential Christian theologian and apologist. Yet the presence of those exceptions doesnt disprove the nearly universal truth the sacred author was affirming. Yeah. For storing and sharing my Apologetic Infographics. According to one commentary Marys song like Hannahs declares that security and significance are found in a God who would care about the broken and poor enough to give himself to them. Hebrews 11:35 describes a group of people in the Old Testament period who were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they may rise again to a better life. The only record of this is found in 2 Maccabees 7, which describes brothers who accept torture at the hands of the Seleucids instead of eating pork and violating Jewish law. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. It may be used this way in Acts 25:21 to say that Paul was held in custody until he was sent to Rome, even though he was still in Roman custody after that point. Agreed. They would be sons from another marriage. And again, as a Roman Catholic, I would expect them to because their issue is not about Mary. And as far as Psalm 69, if you-. Although the Pharisees had authority regarding ritual practices, they did not have doctrinal authority over other Jews, including those who came to believe Jesus was the messiah. Probably I believe it at the bodily assumption only because theres nothing in scripture that even eludes to her death, it doesnt allude to what happened at the end of her life, which even epiphany as Islamist stated that nobody knows what happened to Mary at the end of her life, which demonstrates there was no eyewitness. The late twentieth-century Christian apologist Francis A. Schaeffer saw Christian apologetics as " pre-evangelism " - a way to prepare the mind and heart for the Christian message (the Gospel). In Luke 3:1 its used to describe Herod Antipas and Herod Philip who had the same father, but they were born of different mothers, just as Jesus and his brethren were born of different mothers. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. Click subscribe night before that, we do find this in Zechariah 12:10, where we all sit down,. 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